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The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge
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DrNefario
Posted 2015-05-26 11:41 AM (#10625 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge
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I had a bit of a PKD phase in my late teens. I think what eventually made me call it quits was that his work was so variable. Some of it I loved, and some of it just missed completely.

I don't know what it is, but I've always enjoyed a good catastrophe. The End of the World challenge was a personal favourite last year, and while I don't know if I'd have wanted to repeat it, this 50s challenge seems to have it covered.
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Weesam
Posted 2015-05-26 4:36 PM (#10627 - in reply to #9162)
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I read The Man in the High Castle many years ago - and hated it. Didn't pick up another PKD until last year, when for some reason I decided to read Radio Free Albemuth - and loved it. So I've decided to give him another go with the 1960's challenge.
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jwharris28
Posted 2015-05-27 5:01 PM (#10630 - in reply to #10627)
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Weesam - 2015-05-26 4:36 PM I read The Man in the High Castle many years ago - and hated it. Didn't pick up another PKD until last year, when for some reason I decided to read Radio Free Albemuth - and loved it. So I've decided to give him another go with the 1960's challenge.
 

 What specifically did you hate about The Man in the High Castle? I think it's a masterpiece. Not only is it an early and original example of alternate history, but it's well written, and has wonderful characters. I love how PKD tells his story through the lives of little people. Also, pound for pound, it has an amazing amount of creative ideas in it, far more than most science fiction novels.

 



Edited by jwharris28 2015-05-27 5:02 PM
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jwharris28
Posted 2015-05-27 6:05 PM (#10631 - in reply to #9162)
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I'm trying to think why I like PKD's writing so much. Even though his books were weird and far out, he often wrote about believable people. Not super-heroes that save the world, but schmucks that get by day by day. Here's a passage from The Man in the High Castle about an ex-wife that struct me.


 
Juliana the best-looking woman he had ever married. Soot-black eyebrows and hair; trace amounts of Spanish blood distributed as pure color, even to her lips. Her rubbery, soundless walk; she had worn saddle shoes left over from high school. In fact all her clothes had a dilapidated quality and the definite suggestion of being old and often washed. He and she had been so broke so long that despite her looks she had had to wear a cotton sweater, cloth zippered jacket, brown tweed skirt and bobby socks, and she hated him and it because it made her look, she had said, like a woman who played tennis or (even worse) collected mushrooms in the woods.
But above and beyond everything else, he had originally been drawn by her screwball expression; for no reason, Juliana greeted strangers with a portentous, nudnik, Mona Lisa smile that hung them up between responses, whether to say hello or not. And she was so attractive that more often than not they did say hello, whereupon Juliana glided by. At first he had thought it was just plain bad eyesight, but finally he had decided that it revealed a deep-dyed otherwise concealed stupidity at her core. And so finally her borderline flicker of greeting to strangers had annoyed him, as had her plantlike, silent, Im-on-a-mysterious-errand way of coming and going. But even then, toward the end, when they had been fighting so much, he still never saw her as anything but a direct, literal invention of Gods, dropped into his life for reasons he would never know. And on that account a sort of religious intuition or faith about her he could not get over having lost her.
Dick, Philip K. (2012-01-24). The Man in the High Castle (pp. 14-15). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.


Edited by jwharris28 2015-05-27 6:07 PM
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Guest
Posted 2015-05-27 7:30 PM (#10632 - in reply to #10630)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge
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jwharris28 - 2015-05-27 5:01 PM

What specifically did you hate about The Man in the High Castle? I think it's a masterpiece. Not only is it an early and original example of alternate history, but it's well written, and has wonderful characters. I love how PKD tells his story through the lives of little people. Also, pound for pound, it has an amazing amount of creative ideas in it, far more than most science fiction novels.



Don't know as it was such a long time ago that I read it. About 25 years ago. Maybe I just wasn't ready for PKD at that time. I was new to science fiction and most of my reading at that point was Asimov or Clarke. I got scared off by PKD possibly because it was a lot deeper than what I was used to, and honestly I didn't really understand it. That is why I am going to give it another go. I have read a lot more since I was 24, and learned much. Perhaps now I am ready to be in PKD's head.
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Weesam
Posted 2015-05-27 7:33 PM (#10633 - in reply to #10632)
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And there I go again, not logged in. I really wish someone could sort out why that 'keep me logged in' button no longer works. That was me above.
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jwharris28
Posted 2015-05-27 7:55 PM (#10635 - in reply to #10633)
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Weesam - 2015-05-27 7:33 PM And there I go again, not logged in. I really wish someone could sort out why that 'keep me logged in' button no longer works. That was me above.

Philip K. Dick is much different from other science fiction writers. It's funny how were all so different, and resonate with different writers. I took to PKD when I first discovered him in high school. The first book I remember reading was Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?. It was 1968 and I can still see it on the new 7-day book shelf. I was at the Coconut Grove Library branch, in Miami, Florida. I pulled it down because of the strange cover. I took it home and read it, and thought it very weird indeed. I really didn't start getting into PKD until later though, around 1973 or 1974, when I started doing drugs regularly, and was blown away by The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch. I gave up drugs a couple years later, and sort of forgot PKD for a while. Then I got him to him again, when I started reading his mainstream novels that started coming out. Then I rediscovered him again with his Valis books. My favorite PKD novel is Confessions of a Crap Artist. I wrote about rereading it not long ago at my blog.  

http://auxiliarymemory.com/2013/01/08/confessions-of-a-crap-artist-by-philip-k-dick/

 



Edited by jwharris28 2015-05-27 7:57 PM
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jwharris28
Posted 2015-05-27 8:18 PM (#10636 - in reply to #9162)
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Here's an interesting video review for our group: Smackdown between The Caves of Steel vs. Double Star.

http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2015/05/video-starshipsofa-gives-asimov-vs-heinlein-smackdown/

I posted my perceived winner to the SFSignal site.



Edited by jwharris28 2015-05-27 8:19 PM
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gallyangel
Posted 2015-05-28 2:06 AM (#10637 - in reply to #9162)
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I had the same experience with PKD. When I first read him, didn't get it, didn't like it. No, thank you, I'll read something else. I think I was to young. I think there's an experience of the world factor which comes into play with his work and writing style. And I wasn't ready for it. I've read both Android and High Castle in the last 2-3 years, and I just marvel at them. For a very long time I didn't understand why he was important to SF. I do now.
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DrNefario
Posted 2015-05-28 6:35 AM (#10639 - in reply to #9162)
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I must admit, High Castle was never one of my favourites. Honestly, I think I'd probably get more out of it now, but I just found it a bit dull at the time, I think.

The ones I liked were the reality-bending books like Ubik, which is probably still my favourite, although it's a long time since I read it. The short stories are also pretty great, for the most part. As I said before I kind of gave up on PKD when I read too many turkeys. I found his work very variable. I'm planning to read at least one of his books for the 60s challenge, though.

He's always had a kind of counter-cultural cachet, and for me is one of the most interesting SF writers from a philosophical standpoint. His two big themes seemed to be "what is real?" and "what does it mean to be human?", and I always felt that the movie version of Bladerunner did a good job of being true to the latter theme while not really keeping anything else from the original.
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jwharris28
Posted 2015-05-28 7:54 AM (#10640 - in reply to #10637)
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gallyangel - 2015-05-28 2:06 AM I had the same experience with PKD. When I first read him, didn't get it, didn't like it. No, thank you, I'll read something else. I think I was to young. I think there's an experience of the world factor which comes into play with his work and writing style. And I wasn't ready for it. I've read both Android and High Castle in the last 2-3 years, and I just marvel at them. For a very long time I didn't understand why he was important to SF. I do now.

That's two people who said they might have been too young to enjoy PKD. That's interesting. One criticism of science fiction from the outside world is it's too much for young adults. So maybe PDK is atypical because he's more mature. A lot of science fiction has young people as protagonists, and often PKD had men that were older, often divorced, sometimes with a kid. They were regular guys, struggling with their jobs, dealing with bosses and wives.  I can see where that wouldn't appeal to younger readers. PKD was known as a druggie writer, but often his science fictional drugs were just substitutes for mental illness. There's a lot of mental illness is his stories. I can see where that would be a turn off for young people too.

One reason I've read The Martian Time-Slip several times is because the characters are struggling with mundane real-life problems, even though the setting is Mars. Like Ray Bradbury, Philip K. Dick's Mars, is just 1950s America transported to another planet. Actually, Bradbury was more of the 1930s America. Dick always reflected the 1950s, and to an extent the 1960s, but mostly he was a 1950s person. His drug use was never psychedelic, but had the feel of troubled people of the 1950s. Y'all might not know this, but the 1950s were obsessed with psychiatry.

 So PKD's work is focused on 1950s mental problems, rather than 1950s dreams of conquering space. 



Edited by jwharris28 2015-05-28 7:55 AM
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dustydigger
Posted 2015-05-28 11:50 AM (#10643 - in reply to #10640)
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OK Jim,I will definitely try Martian Time Slip.
I think I went into Man in the High Castle with wrong expectations. I was interested at first with the alternate history stuff,and was a bit disconcerted when the whole plot seemed to be carelessly(to me) tossed aside two thirds through,when melodrama,murder etc came in. I just found it a bit odd somehow. I do still intend to read Ubik and A Scanner Darkly.Maybe I will finally ''get'' PKD!....maybe...
I also just completed my final book of the challenge,Vonnegut's Sirens of Titan. The usual Vonnegut's savage denunciations of war and christianity. Acerbic,mordantly funny at times,but as usual the unpleasnt characters puts me off a bit. Good writing though,and numerous twists of plot to keep us riveted. One chilling but brilliant chapter was about the Martian army,all with antennas in their heads,sort of proto chips,who are completely controlled by them. Brainwashing was a major concern in the 50s after the Korean War. Lobotomies were still surgical procedures. All very frightening. The brain,brainwashing,psi talents etc were all quite common themes in 50s SF. So as usual I was impressed by Vonnegut,but not enthused. One of the downsides of satire as I think we touched on with his Player Piano early in the challenge. Once again,Vonnegut is admirable for his savage bitter denunciations,but not lovable whatsover.
So now waiting for Doc N's new challenge for the 60s.
Thanks both to him for setting it up,and of course Jim for his fantastic lists. I now have a much deeper grasp of 50s SF. Thanks for the guidance!
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jwharris28
Posted 2015-05-28 12:14 PM (#10644 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge
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Dustydigger, I don't think everyone will like PKD. Time Magazine liked Ubik enough to add it to its Best Books of All Time. I didn't. But I know many people who love Ubik. I think everyone finds a different PKD book to love. He wrote many strangely different books. A Scanner Darkly is both brilliant and depressing. It's about how drugs destroy people, and is based on his real life experience with drug users, many of which died. My absolute favorite PKD novel is Confessions of a Crap Artist. It's not even science fiction, but a science fan is the main character. It's a round robin between several characters' POVs. Dick shows us reality from different perspectives, and none of them are reliable. It's a Rashomon like story.

Edited by jwharris28 2015-05-28 12:15 PM
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Badseedgirl
Posted 2015-05-28 1:06 PM (#10645 - in reply to #9162)
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I read Man In The High Castle this year, and frankly I did not like it. The way PKD seemed to drop the main character 2/3rds of the way through the novel to focus on the wife was disconcerting to say the least. And then I'm not sure I even understood the ending. What were the wife and the author trying to say at the end, that they knew they were an alternate reality? I don't know, I'm not stupid and I don't need plots spoon fed to me, but the novel seemed to me to be a series of unfinished thoughts. PKD picked up and dropped story lines without any resolution to any of them.

Now this is the first PDK I have read and I have 2 more of his novel slated to read this year, Time out of Joint and Solar Lottery, which I may like more. I try not to judge authors by just one novel, especially a prolific writer like PDK, so as you said JW, I might find I like one of the others.

I just finished Bradbury's The Illustrated Man for this challenge, and actually enjoyed that one better than The Martian Chronicles. Although " There Will Come Soft Rain" may be my favorite short story of all time. I'm on to Player Piano by Vonnegut or The Demolished Man by Bester if it comes in from Interlibrary Loan in a timely manner. Sometimes waiting for the library to get the books is the worst part of a challenge!

By the way Mr. Harris I am enjoying your list very much. Although I have heard of many of the authors on your list, I have not read very many of them. This at least gives me a reference to start dipping my toe in some of these classic novels. I think it is important to see where the "roots" of a genre that I enjoy so much come from. Many of what are considered the sic-fi cliches, found their start in these very novels.
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Weesam
Posted 2015-05-28 5:24 PM (#10648 - in reply to #10640)
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jwharris28 - 2015-05-29 12:54 AM

That's two people who said they might have been too young to enjoy PKD. That's interesting. One criticism of science fiction from the outside world is it's too much for young adults. So maybe PDK is atypical because he's more mature. A lot of science fiction has young people as protagonists, and often PKD had men that were older, often divorced, sometimes with a kid. They were regular guys, struggling with their jobs, dealing with bosses and wives. I can see where that wouldn't appeal to younger readers. PKD was known as a druggie writer, but often his science fictional drugs were just substitutes for mental illness. There's a lot of mental illness is his stories. I can see where that would be a turn off for young people too



I don't know if it is necessarily just age, after all I was 24 when I read it, not a teenager. But I was a very sheltered 24, with no real experience of a big bad world, and therefore there was nothing in PKD that spoke to me, and little understanding from me of issues such as mental illness. You also mention that it is a world that people of the 1950's would understand, and there again, I didn't really start picking up what would be my culture until the 1980's, which was when I was a teenager.
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jwharris28
Posted 2015-05-29 7:34 AM (#10654 - in reply to #9162)
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Here's an interesting article about John Wyndham at Kirkus Reviews https://www.kirkusreviews.com/features/john-wyndham-and-global-expansion-science-fiction/

Edited by jwharris28 2015-05-29 7:35 AM
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dustydigger
Posted 2015-05-31 12:44 AM (#10662 - in reply to #9162)
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@ Jim. Better late than never I watched the Heinlein/Asimov video,and I too agree that Heinlein holds up better.The Great Lorenzo is such an interesting and engaging character,and anyway the whole substitution plot is one of my fave plotlines,from Shakespeare's Comedy of errors through Twain's Prince and the Pauper up to Josephine Tey's Brat Farrar and a million other modern books. Asimov has a lot of great ideas,the world building of the Caves of Steel is interesting,but the writing is so pedestrian and clunky.and the characters are so cardboard that much is lost. Still.I enjoy both books,and can bear to reread them.
By the way,the person discussing the books obviously comes from my area.,probably 15-20 miles away by his strong north east accent. My accent isnt half as strong as that,thank heavens! A really strong local accent is almost incomprehensible to the rest of the country

The Wyndham article was interesting,especially the points about how Wyndham and others escaped the genre straitjacketso prevalent in the US because the SF magazines were in short supply here so authors were looked upon less disparagingly by the wider public. Food for thought.

Edited by dustydigger 2015-05-31 12:59 AM
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dustydigger
Posted 2015-06-13 5:00 PM (#10773 - in reply to #9162)
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YAY! Great discovery today. I have been very frustrated by the paucity of 1950s boks available through my library. I had to buy several books to complete the challenge. Well,today I discovered an offshoot of Internet Archive called Open Library,similar to Project Gutenberg in making free access to older books.The books are scanned,and the layout is a bit clunky,but I discovered many of the 50s challenge available to borrow free for two weeks at a time!
Heres the list of available books if you can bear to read scanned books
1950
E E Smith - First Lensman
E E Doc Smith - Galactic Patrol*
Isaac Asimov - I,Robot
Isaac Asimov - Pebble in the Sky
A E Van Vogt - The Voyage of the Space Beagle*

1951
Isaac Asimov - Foundation
E E Doc Smith - Grey Lensman*
Robert A Heinlein - The Puppet Masters
Arthur C Clarke - The Sands of Mars*
Isaac Asimov - The Stars,like Dust

1952
Clifford D Simak - City*
Isaac Asimov - Currents of Space*
Alfred Bester - The Demolished Man
Isaac Asimov - Foundation and Empire
Robert A Heinlein - The Rolling Stones*
Raymond F Jones - This Island Earth

1953
Arthur C Clarke - Childhoods End
Theodore Sturgeon - More Than Human
Clifford D Simak - Ring Around the Sun*
E E Doc Smith - Second Stage Lensman*
Pohl+Kornbluth - The Space Merchants
Robert A Heinlein - Starman Jones
Wilson Tucker - Wild Talent*

1954
Isaac Asimov - Caves of Steel
Andre Norton - The Stars Are Ours!*

1955
Arthur C Clarke - Earthlight*
James Blish - Cities in Flight*
Isaac Asimov - The End of Eternity*
Isaac Asimov - The Martian Way*
Fredric Brown - Martians Go Home*

1956
William Tenn - The Human Angle*
Robert A Heinlein - Time for the Stars*
Frank Herbert - Under Pressure*

1957
Robert A Heinlein - Citizen of the Galaxy
Mark Clifton - The Forever Machine
John Wyndham - The Midwich Cuckoos
Isaac Asimov - The Naked Sun
Nevill Shute - On the Beach
Andre Norton - Star Born

1958
Brian W Aldiss - Non-Stop*
Andre Norton - Time Traders
Algis Budrys - Who?*

1959
Pat Frank - Alas Babylon*
Gordon R Dickson - Dorsai*
Pohl+Kornbluth - Wolfsbane*

asterisked books are those I intend to read.
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jwharris28
Posted 2015-06-14 8:33 AM (#10774 - in reply to #9162)
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Thanks for the information about Open Library. I've been poking around and it's quite a fascinating place. Claims to do for books/libraries/catalogs what Wikipedia did for encyclopedias.
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pizzakarin
Posted 2015-06-19 2:10 PM (#10825 - in reply to #9162)
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I just finished Player Piano by Kurt Vonnegut for my 1952 book and found it unenjoyable. It read more like an extended parable than a novel because it hammered home its lessons so forcefully. I didn't find any of the humor that others seemed to have found. Maybe it's because I found it hard to place myself in that world. Besides there being only a single female character in the entire book, the male characters were not ones I could empathize with. Paul Proteus, the protagonist, lacked any agency and instead went with the current of wherever he was. The previously mentioned currents were single-minded two-dimensional characters of various agendas and they swept up everything in their path without consideration. While that may have been part of Vonnegut's point, it made for dull reading (or, in my case, listening).

Next up for 1953, Childhood's End.
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DrNefario
Posted 2015-06-21 5:53 AM (#10843 - in reply to #9162)
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I've just finished The Time Traders by Andre Norton for 1958. It was a reasonably entertaining lightweight adventure story. I'd previously read The Big Time and A Case of Conscience for this year, neither of which are big favourites of mine, so I guess it's looking a bit of a weak year, so far.

Just 1959 to go, and it's now the only year until 1971 for which I don't actually own anything. I've read five of the nine books of 1959, proportionally my best year of the decade. At the moment, I'm thinking The Enemy Stars is my most likely choice, since I can get hold of it easily and cheaply from SF Gateway. I'm slightly amazed that I've had the willpower to hold off buying it until I'm ready to ready to read it, but I figured it's an ebook. It's not going anywhere.
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pizzakarin
Posted 2015-07-09 9:23 PM (#10925 - in reply to #9162)
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I finished 1954 - Childhood's End by Arthur C Clarke. Even though I can't say that I enjoyed the book much I am glad to have read it. It seems like the type of book that has endured because it has something important to say. I do wish that Mr Clarke had not fiddled with the opening chapter. I read both versions and the original fits with the book so much better.
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DrNefario
Posted 2015-07-10 7:43 AM (#10926 - in reply to #9162)
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I thought there was also a bit of a logical problem with the revised version, too, when one of the scientists mentions that he worked on radios for the resistance during the German occupation of France. It's just a throwaway line, but if you move the whole thing forwards 40 years, it doesn't really work out.
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jwharris28
Posted 2015-07-10 7:47 AM (#10927 - in reply to #10925)
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pizzakarin - 2015-07-09 9:23 PM I finished 1954 - Childhood's End by Arthur C Clarke. Even though I can't say that I enjoyed the book much I am glad to have read it. It seems like the type of book that has endured because it has something important to say. I do wish that Mr Clarke had not fiddled with the opening chapter. I read both versions and the original fits with the book so much better.

 I hate when authors revise their science fiction. Fixing things means we don't get to see how they originally extrapolated.

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pizzakarin
Posted 2015-07-10 9:33 AM (#10928 - in reply to #10926)
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I feel that Clarke would have been better served leaving the first chapter as-is and expanding his forward to the new addition to discuss how he feels his story might have changed if he had written it forty years after he did (since the new chapter was put in place in the early 90s edition of the book).
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